[RPG/Arcade] Mercenaries, the Show-Off

rvonsonsnadtz · 69276

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Reply #50 on: April 21, 2013, 05:46:59 AM
I been thinking; the paths are all good ideas, but this game isn't a 200h rpg, it's more of a 1-2h long (longer if the players choose in the begining) competitive map with RPG elements (like a few quests and a little map to explore) so I am worried that many players would find it actually annoying to choose to much in the begining (again, we are here with the mental-process things). But I have another idea; I wonder if I should remove some of the fixed passives on the heroes and instead have a quite large, more generic list of passive perks the hero could choose from at certain levels (like every 3:rd or something) ^^
 Like Spellpenetration, Magical Strength (increases spell-damage by a percent), Attackpenetration, Extra stats, Armor etc etc.



Reply #51 on: April 21, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
Yeah, just remove the paths and stick with the classes. For the passive lists, I suggest you make those perks such as Spell Penetration, Magical Damage, Attack Penetration, Armor, be based on your stats. Say Spell Pen., Magical Damage, Magical Armor, Mana and Mana Regen. are influenced by the Intelligence stat; Strength influences Attack Pen., Armor, Attack Damage, Health and Health Regen.; Agility can influence Base Movement Speed, Attack Speed, Dodge Rate, Hit Rate, etc.
But thats just a suggestion. You could add more stats like Constitution, Wisdom, and more.



gucci mane


Reply #52 on: April 22, 2013, 01:32:43 PM
I already have something that is quite similiar to the runes you mentioned:
There is a total of 6variants; one type of each stat, one more generic (levelbound, not stat*levelbound) and one platima (more unique effects, like Lifesteal, "Energy Converter" and some more. I maybe should update the first post again) Also, I have 4 stats, here they come with their default effect; Stamina(health and healthregen), Proficiency(Hit and dodgerate), Energy(Mana and manareg, I think I will change it's name to Will or Willpower) and Focus(Spelleffect). Which stat that increases your attackdamage is dependable on your character, and you could have more than one.
  What I meant was that each 3:rd level, you could choose a static, passive ability, that could increase your attack/spell - armor, penetration, move/attack speed, gain another extra attack-damage from a stat or extra spelleffect from a stat except focus etc. to further improve your ability to make up for the parts where you feel that your hero fails. As earlier said; items won't have the same effect on this game as it does in DotA or RPGs, instead you will use the runes, "enchants" and ev. these passive perks or feats. ^^



Reply #53 on: April 23, 2013, 03:15:55 AM
I think you should make Attack Damage and Spellpower be influenced by one of those stats, not making it depended on your character to allow customization. The stats itself would be increased by items and spell effects.

The 3rd Level thing is good, but I suggest you change the static, passive ability into a unique passive, which is only available to a certain hero. That ability can be upgraded at certain points, say after the ultimate is unlocked. Say it could be learned at level 8 and 16, assuming you have a level cap of 20.

Also, small suggestion - make all units heroes so they can level up as well.



gucci mane


Reply #54 on: April 23, 2013, 10:06:59 AM
Right now, I think we are talking around each other, and I starts to think that we are missunderstanding each other, since I interpret what you have written in some earlier parts as stuff that I already has, and at other points I starts to belive you meant something completely different.
 This is how it works right now;
Every hero has a total of 6 active spells, the last one is however not unlocked until all other spells are taken (this is because of how I have designed the ability-selection, the place where the last spell will be put is taken by the Learn Skill-icon, I could however change this if I wanted, but that would make the skill-learning a little bit harder (I could for example add some kind of unit in the HeroView-GUI that holds the LearnSkill-stuff))
 Atleast 2-3 of them (a max of 4) is directly learnt by the Learn Skill, the others are gained when a ability currently called "Epic Feats" are taken, which automatically gives you the next ability from the hero's unique feat-list. (Spells learnt directly has 5levels, while "Epic Feats"-spells normally has one. More of this in the coming text)

 Then we have passive abilities, each hero has 3 of them. Also here, some of them could be learnt directly in the LearnSkill, others are part of the "Epic Feats". Notice that level-ups of active "Epic Feats" are counted as a passive (like Scholars Empower Spell (active) and Improved Empower Spell (passive, improves the Empower Spell)).

 Now to the stats; I have written what each stat gives by default. Now why I said that which stat that increases attack-damage is hero-based was cause I thought that a Mage who casts small fireballs as autoattack shouldn't have Stamina as a standard damage-stat, but this has been my opinion, and perhaps my creativity is a bit damaged by wc3's standard (an also DotA) way of calculating damage out of stats.
 However, right now every hero has 1stat that increases damage, but "Specs" (what I currently is calling your rune-idea, which I really thought was great! (: ) could add extra from another (ex: Scholar uses Focus as the main damage-stat, but by using a damage-spec from Energy, he could also add a small extra attack-damage from Energy as well.)
 Also abilities can give damage based upon a stat not being the characters main-damage stat (Nobleman or NobleKnight, not sure what I will call him (Lord Garithos model), has a spell called Charge which in level 3 and higher adds a small amount of proficiency as damage during the spell-activation, though he uses Stamina as the damage-stat)

 You could have 2specs/stat + 1 for platima and 1 for the level-mod. You can also have one enchant per "category" (to a total of 6 enchants, all choosen from a list in the HeroView GUI)
 However, the specs are unlocked either in the start of the game or at certain points (like when the first event has been played through, some of the specs are unlocked, etc) while enchants costs gold to buy and upgrade. All specs are equally good at all parts of the game, and could be changed anytime as you can access the HeroView-GUI. Enchants however has some more earlier game-stuff (static damage/spelldamage stuff for example) and some more overall/late-game (stat-increases, also armor would I add here, as it gives a percentage-reduktion, and then also penetration). Some enchants have misc-stuff to (Movement speed). You could change between any unlocked enchantments whenever you could access the HeroView-GUI, as well as unlocking/upgrading them with enough gold. (A little bit oftopic; I planned in the beginning to make different enchants require different stuff, like some needed gold, some needed killed animals or undeads killed etc, but I skipped this idea since it feels like it both would require alot of extra work for a minor feature, and it might just make stuff more complicated.. might be implemented in the future if I feel it would fit the map)

 I have no plans on making units to heroes, both cause I personally belive it is enough with one "unit" becoming better by pure combat is enough, I have already made a large part of the code to fit if just the main Hero is a "hero" and lastly cause I am unsure of how many units I am planning on letting a player controll. If they have 10 units + a familiar(giving a total of 12 "heroes"), you would have this annoying, long list of heroes on the left. I could create a custom-made xp-thing if I wanted for the units (and now when you said, I maybe should for the familiar, but not the rest, with a maxlevel of 5perhaps ^^')

 I am thinking that you maybe should upgrade units with gold, forcing you to choose between unlocking/upgrading enchants, buying/upgrading units or buying consumables/items (weak charms, doesn't have as strong effect as a enchant, as it is more of a option instead of just a lot of consumables).
 Among consumables; things I have in mind are (alongside the ordinary; health, mana, sentrywards etc) also single-stat-increasing, multiplestat-increasing, levelmodifier-increasing, debuff-stuff, bombs with different effects with more.

This is how my plan looks like for the moment when it comes to design of heroes and units (with accessories)
 If there is anything here that you think is a really bad idea, or gets a suggestion on how to improve it, then please tell me (:



Reply #55 on: April 23, 2013, 09:57:44 PM
Right now, I think we are talking around each other, and I starts to think that we are missunderstanding each other, since I interpret what you have written in some earlier parts as stuff that I already has, and at other points I starts to belive you meant something completely different.
Im feeling it too. My fault here, sorry. Just update your main post so I can know what I need and dont need to say :P

Quote
This is how it works right now;
Every hero has a total of 6 active spells, the last one is however not unlocked until all other spells are taken (this is because of how I have designed the ability-selection, the place where the last spell will be put is taken by the Learn Skill-icon, I could however change this if I wanted, but that would make the skill-learning a little bit harder (I could for example add some kind of unit in the HeroView-GUI that holds the LearnSkill-stuff))
 Atleast 2-3 of them (a max of 4) is directly learnt by the Learn Skill, the others are gained when a ability currently called "Epic Feats" are taken, which automatically gives you the next ability from the hero's unique feat-list. (Spells learnt directly has 5levels, while "Epic Feats"-spells normally has one. More of this in the coming text)
No need for a HeroView GUI. Just stick with the classic system for learning skills. Also, make the Learn Skill learn at a uniform number to ensure balanced fights and no player backlash. So if there are 4 learnt skills, that means the max level is 22? If so, make it an odd number. Just trust me on this one.

Quote
Then we have passive abilities, each hero has 3 of them. Also here, some of them could be learnt directly in the LearnSkill, others are part of the "Epic Feats". Notice that level-ups of active "Epic Feats" are counted as a passive (like Scholars Empower Spell (active) and Improved Empower Spell (passive, improves the Empower Spell)).
Now you just have too many spells. Makes the game more complex and removes the needs of some items. Smaller sets of skills allows for a more competitive and item-valuing game. This allows your heroes to value farming much more. You should rely on items as well, and tone down the passives to just one innate passive which levels up at levels 8 and 16.

Quote
Now to the stats; I have written what each stat gives by default. Now why I said that which stat that increases attack-damage is hero-based was cause I thought that a Mage who casts small fireballs as autoattack shouldn't have Stamina as a standard damage-stat, but this has been my opinion, and perhaps my creativity is a bit damaged by wc3's standard (an also DotA) way of calculating damage out of stats.
 However, right now every hero has 1stat that increases damage, but "Specs" (what I currently is calling your rune-idea, which I really thought was great! (: ) could add extra from another (ex: Scholar uses Focus as the main damage-stat, but by using a damage-spec from Energy, he could also add a small extra attack-damage from Energy as well.)
 Also abilities can give damage based upon a stat not being the characters main-damage stat (Nobleman or NobleKnight, not sure what I will call him (Lord Garithos model), has a spell called Charge which in level 3 and higher adds a small amount of proficiency as damage during the spell-activation, though he uses Stamina as the damage-stat)
A little bit of bias here, but I hate treating Attack Damage as a part of another stat and not as a stat itself. You should play Invasion of Duskwood to know what kind of stats i'm talking about, and trust me those stat system are highly efficient.

Quote
You could have 2specs/stat + 1 for platima and 1 for the level-mod. You can also have one enchant per "category" (to a total of 6 enchants, all choosen from a list in the HeroView GUI)
 However, the specs are unlocked either in the start of the game or at certain points (like when the first event has been played through, some of the specs are unlocked, etc) while enchants costs gold to buy and upgrade. All specs are equally good at all parts of the game, and could be changed anytime as you can access the HeroView-GUI. Enchants however has some more earlier game-stuff (static damage/spelldamage stuff for example) and some more overall/late-game (stat-increases, also armor would I add here, as it gives a percentage-reduktion, and then also penetration). Some enchants have misc-stuff to (Movement speed). You could change between any unlocked enchantments whenever you could access the HeroView-GUI, as well as unlocking/upgrading them with enough gold. (A little bit oftopic; I planned in the beginning to make different enchants require different stuff, like some needed gold, some needed killed animals or undeads killed etc, but I skipped this idea since it feels like it both would require alot of extra work for a minor feature, and it might just make stuff more complicated.. might be implemented in the future if I feel it would fit the map)
Yeah, just skip this and make them chiefly in the items, and these items could be obtained by quest-fetching like what you said above.

Quote
I have no plans on making units to heroes, both cause I personally belive it is enough with one "unit" becoming better by pure combat is enough, I have already made a large part of the code to fit if just the main Hero is a "hero" and lastly cause I am unsure of how many units I am planning on letting a player controll. If they have 10 units + a familiar(giving a total of 12 "heroes"), you would have this annoying, long list of heroes on the left. I could create a custom-made xp-thing if I wanted for the units (and now when you said, I maybe should for the familiar, but not the rest, with a maxlevel of 5perhaps ^^')
Yeah, your way could work. You should play some Invasion of Duskwood again to know what I was talking about or sonofjay's Dwarf's Tale to know why its nice in my point of view. Partly because the unit itself scales at the same pace as you.

Quote
I am thinking that you maybe should upgrade units with gold, forcing you to choose between unlocking/upgrading enchants, buying/upgrading units or buying consumables/items (weak charms, doesn't have as strong effect as a enchant, as it is more of a option instead of just a lot of consumables).
 Among consumables; things I have in mind are (alongside the ordinary; health, mana, sentrywards etc) also single-stat-increasing, multiplestat-increasing, levelmodifier-increasing, debuff-stuff, bombs with different effects with more.
Maybe unit upgrades should be done by the computer instead and detect the right time when an upgrade is viable, kinda like in DotA.
Those consumables are fine, but maybe don't include level modifier increasing items, maybe something that just speeds up XP gain for like 15 seconds or less. Also add those health/mana repleneshing ones

Still, all of this are suggestions and its up t you to implement it. Also, you should post maybe a summary of your games systems in the main post.
Also, don't forsake the usefulness of items. Haven't heard from them.

Also, a cosmetic suggestion - maybe make some dumb AI controlled mercenaries which roam the map and try to get your creep kills, like the one in Dwarf's Tale.



gucci mane


Reply #56 on: April 24, 2013, 07:01:08 AM
Now this was alot better; here I understand it all (:
 The max-level has been 25 (and it will probably stay that way) (4 directly learnt skills and 5 epic feats, however, as you mentioned, I maybe should change this and reduce the amount of passives)

 I did a quick test with the invasion of duskwood, however, the item-system isn't much different in DotA (or atleast what I found), as you still needs to buy earlier stuff to upgrade with recipes and stuff.. This is, (atleast what I have experienced) the by-far largest part of the learning-curve. And it doesn't help much that you have played a similiar game before, cause it is still pain to stand in the shop looking for a good item while the others, more experienced, are in the battlefield fighting.
 My "enchant"-system is basically a way to easy things up alot, while still encourage farming. And one of aspects of this idea that I like is that you don't need to store "later to use"-items, you don't need to mess around with the items to get all things for a new item in the inventory. You just look at the enchants available, buy it and later upgrade it. However, I might change how it looks right now, cause I can't have more than perhaps 8/category (which still theoretically gives 262144 possible combinations)
 However, enchants and items will be bought with gold, specs will follow the way that I said earlier I think, I haven't decided how to unlock units, but perhaps you could get like a specific amount of points of a resource (could change the wood-one) given after a event, which you use to unlock a new type of unit for the next event.  And lastly, the quest-rewards. I have been mentally struggling with the thought that your teams could change anytime, that 1item given when a quest is completed, while only a few of the players really are doing it, while the others play around or does another quest, and that I don't want a player to get way ahead of the others just because he done a quest that others didn't, and thereby can't cause it is already finished; if came up with a new idea.
 The quest-reward is unlocking a familiar.
 Familiars are like a extra captain of your units, they have a special, active-ability and different stats from each others. Now different heroes probably has more use of different familiars (a warrior might want a healer or a damage-dealer to prolong his life, while a ranged hero might want something to keep of the attacks)
 This shouuld logically only give players that did the quest the true reward, because other players might not want it. (This way of thinking might require that the familiar's strength is a bit specific-stat-based, like the ability of some familiars get's stronger with Focus, and some Stamina etc. )
 
 Lastly, I haven't updated the mainpost yet because I still figuring how I should implement things.
And I shall test the A Dwarf's Tale (:



Reply #57 on: April 24, 2013, 10:07:30 AM
On Invasion of Duskwood, I was talking about the leveling of the abilities, not the items. There was nothing glamorous in its shop system.

About the enchants, on what you're telling me know seems so good so far. The only thing that wonders me is how can I view the enchants I have? Maybe you could buy items and just add enchants to them. Say I have a Sword Hilt, I can use the Reinforce Blade enchantment to add an iron blade, then maybe add a Fire enchantment to make it burning via usage of attachments. Just a suggestion though. Also, wouldn't it be too hard to implement and balance these features? Sometimes classic stuff are great since it wouldn't ask the player to learn. Just keep the perfect imbalance.

Could you also tell me how does the game works basically? Does it have mechanics like a MOBA, or maybe an Arena/Deathmatch? I have a hard time understanding that post partly because I have no idea how the game works.



gucci mane


Reply #58 on: April 24, 2013, 12:13:46 PM
I have no current plans on viewing the "enchants" in the ordinary inventory. But I think you have missunderstood the enchant-system. It works very much like the ordinary inventory-system, except 3things; you access them through the HeroView, not a shop; instead of having items of different tiers, you upgrade them for easier management, and lastly, you could only have on for each "place".
 So I could just name it items and say that you have weapon, arms, feet, legs, head and chest. And I think I have confused you here, since they ARE the non-consumable items in "classic turns", but I wanted to call them enchants because the hero-model already has a weapon, and maybe armor, so it makes more sense calling them enchants, and just skip all types of items in the classic turn. (Ex; in RPG-maps you might have items in different categories; you have 1 weapon (some might support dualwield, but that's outside the point), 1chest, 1helmet, 1legpiece, 1 pair of gauntlets and 1 pair of shoes. That is how the enchants works, but I call them enchants to make more sense. )
 About the visuals; here I think you have read my mind! :D I have been thinking that I should add some kind of visual to most of it, however, helm/head enchants might be a buff attached to the "overhead" instead of the head, otherwise it might look odd, but that is more up to me as a designer to see what really looks best.

 About how the game works; I can update the headpost about this, read it again and see if you get it (:



Reply #59 on: April 25, 2013, 12:07:19 AM
Well viewing it via the GUI would be somehow inefficient. What if I wanted to view it mid battle? Also, why not just make another hero unit named Enchants?

Also, I get the Enchants now. Overhead attachment is weird, make it at the head.



gucci mane


Reply #60 on: April 26, 2013, 09:31:54 AM
How about making the enchantments a buff? (thereby showing it in the status of the hero) (:
 Another way could be having passive abilities corresponding the enchantments inside a spellbook, but it would probably be inside another spellbook (I already have a spellbook with some hero-characteristics, like attack-type, what attack-type he is extra resistant/vulnerable to if any and his passive ability. I have also been thinking about having a revive-spell or summon-spell for the familiar there, but I'm not sure which of them I want to use..)



Reply #61 on: April 26, 2013, 10:26:04 AM
Just make it a buff. Keep an extra slot just in case. Do you have any screenshots of your GUI btw?



gucci mane


Reply #62 on: April 26, 2013, 12:10:07 PM
As more you use the WC3 standard interface, the better. This is a good rule to follow. I agree to use buffs.


Reply #63 on: April 26, 2013, 05:00:39 PM
The GUI is far from finished, but I can give one of how looks now, and explain a little how it would be ^^'

Each collumn in the enchant-list correspond 1 category; starting from left: Weapon, Feet, Arm, Head, Shoulder, Chest.

Im gonna add the "Power" attribute (the attack-damage-stat), but I haven't been coding for a while, been busy lately ^^'



Reply #64 on: April 27, 2013, 02:32:57 AM
It looks weird without any borders. You should check out Anachron's CustomInventory for basis, and there you can "borrow" the borders used in his project, so it would look better, somehow like this:



Linky: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/spells-569/vjass-system-custominventory-159130/



gucci mane


Reply #65 on: April 28, 2013, 04:49:33 PM
Ok, see what I can do.
But it would probably be some days before I start again, I just turned 20 today (28/4) and I have some more study to do, so I might not update here for a while. But I will still checkout any updates on this site (:



Reply #66 on: April 28, 2013, 10:04:31 PM
Good to hear. Take as much time as you need. Quality shouldn't be rushed :D
Also, Happy Birthday, and have a nice day!



gucci mane


Reply #67 on: May 07, 2013, 11:47:05 AM
Finally, school for this season is done. I should have more time on the project now! However, I still won't lay to many hours/week due to the nice weather outside, and that I have a guitar to build! (:
 About the border: I am working on that, but first I want the whole thing to work properly, so that all buttons, texts and stuff are where they should be. Then I could create the border more nicely! (:
 And I've added another attribute: Power, which is the main damagepoint modifier (:



Reply #68 on: May 08, 2013, 12:32:32 AM
Good to hear some more updates!



gucci mane


Reply #69 on: May 08, 2013, 07:09:05 AM
Hmmm... I wonder if someone could make me a square, thick selection-model with 3 animations; one yellow active selection, one gray/white semiactive and one green activated animation (feel free to name them whatever you want, but atleast tell me which is what ^^' ). I would like the inner, "invisible" square to be 32units wide. I've tried wc3:s selection-circles for my GUI to show which item are activly selected and which items are "background" selected, but they are nearly invisible on a 1280*1024 screen. If some1 would play this on anything less, they would probably not see any activations at all ^^'
 Thanks in advance, and I promise to give credit for the model used! (:



Reply #70 on: May 08, 2013, 10:40:49 AM
For the square, make it a circle, and you can just use one of it and just modify the tint of it ingame. For this, you could use the selection circle texture wrapped into a flat square. Just my suggestion though.



gucci mane


Reply #71 on: May 29, 2013, 06:42:38 AM
Update: I got a temporal selection-circle, but have a minor bug of it showing it's healthbar (my guess is that the show/hide unit-code messes with the locust-ability..)
 I've also fixed the enchants, took a bit longer than expected cause the real-number-bugs was worse than expected. Next is the specs and a few minor extra features (texts when mouse hover over ex. damage to see further details with more) before the GUI is done and I could again focus on heroes and, more importantly, the event-system (:
 However, I've forgotten my notes at my parents house, and I won't get there in a few weeks time, so not much will happen for the moment... Sry..
 



Reply #72 on: May 29, 2013, 08:23:51 AM
Good to hear some news. Good luck there!



gucci mane


Reply #73 on: May 29, 2013, 08:46:34 AM
Yeahhh :D

The trick of success is keep moving... so don't stop. ;)


Reply #74 on: June 07, 2013, 03:44:44 PM
Gah.. I am probably the worst icon-maker in the history.. Someone who has some tips? (I want to create some simple, straightforward pictures that represent attributes, like dodgerate, hitrate, hitpoints, attackdamage and so on, but when I tried to create the "dodgerate"-icon, it looked like a yellow little man was poking at some white,,, thing..)



 

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